This is the kind of thing that really grinds my gears. I'm ALL about taking creepy people to task, up to and including throwing them out and asking them not to come back, but distributing this flyer is just dumb on SO many levels.
1) It's horrendously paternalistic. It treats the attendees like children who need to be nannied and supervised rather than the rational adults they ought to be treated as. Instead of just chalking up creeps as one of the perils of interacting with other people, we insulate and try to protect everyone from ever having a negative experience anywhere. It's like the parents who don't let their kids play in the yard.
2) It won't work to stop creeps, because creeps don't realize that these flyers are talking to them. They think their behavior is just fine and dandy and that they're part of this loving community of dancers.
3) It's dumb marketing. If I'm a newb and I go to this event and get this flyer I think that a) this place has a creep problem, and b) they don't trust me to behave like a normal human being.
4) It's elitist. At the bottom they tell you to seek out these cool community leaders for advice on how not to be creepy. Who died and made these three people experts? Who made them the nannies of this scene? It stratifies the community into the elites who are okay and proven and can do whatever and the newbies who may or may not be creeps. And who's the judge of what "too friendly" means? Is there a threshold that's accepted by everyone? Is it the three people at the bottom who decide? Are certain people who are well-liked and in the in crowd already allowed to get away with being "too friendly" while older less attractive less cool people are called creeps?
Like I said before I'm all about making dancing a safe environment and throwing creeps out. Time was creeps used to be taken out back and given a sock in the jaw, and I was cool with that. But this is just ridiculously passive-aggressive and paternalistic, not to mention it puts a tremendous burden on the folks listed at the bottom to never do anything that might be considered creepy (although my sense is that they have enough stature in the community that they could do all these things and not be called creepy, this is targeted solely at newbies and less cool folks who aren't in the same cliques).
I think more generally that the problem is that in this community we've forgotten that dancing, like going out to a bar or going on a date or going anywhere in public with people you don't know, is a public social activity. And public social activities involve a certain amount of discomfort and risk because people are different and act in ways you don't expect, up to and including creepiness. I thought dealing with creeps was a social skill everyone was supposed to learn out there in the real world. Has our society become so intolerant and insulated from the dangers of the world out there that we now require some nanny organization to regulate this problem for us? Is it just the dancing community or is this part of the broader trend of parents who overprotect their kids and municipal regulations that ban any potentially dangerous activity (like the small town in the Midwest that recently cancelled Halloween)?
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Actually, I'm okay with the flyer. Obviously there have been some problems in the past, and the organizers of the event are trying to fix them. I can think of some situations where a flyer like this would have helped, for instance, the time I told a lead, "Tilt your pelvis back, or I will stop dancing with you." "But they-" "NO. It's an illusion. They are not. Tilt your pelvis back." He did, then he brought it forward again. "I told you, if you don't tilt your pelvis back, I will stop dancing with you. We're done."
I've also had to gently tell a lead, "Um, please stop leading me from my lower back - it hurts when you do that." He asked where he should put his hand, I told him the shoulder blade, and he then reached over to lead me from my RIGHT shoulder blade, when he realized the left wasn't close enough for him. (i.e. there was enough room for the baby Jesus)
I understand that it seems kind of silly, but there are a LOT of women socially conditioned to just put up with situations that make them uncomfortable, especially when it's just for a little while. Given the choice between making a scene, and feeling squicked out for five minutes, many will choose to be passive and deal. It looks like they were trying to give the follows who were complaining permission to make a scene, instead of gritting their teeth.
I think the "too friendly" should have been left off or put in quotation marks.
It would be much funnier if it were photo-illustrated
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Though I see it as an odd precaution and think it to be very assuming, and though I don't endorse the action at all. I will submit this thought.
There are scenes, out there....lets say Tampa where I have seen kids as young as 13 at the dance, and seniors perhaps as old as 75 and everything in between. This can happen because swing dancing in this environment is considered good clean safe fun.
As consenting adults we have weighed risks but the young teenage "kids" in the establishment do not feel the need to be aware of the creeps, they are just having fun. Senior citizens find the place to be fun and Christian groups approve. All is going well until people become aware of an unsavory element. What do you do. This question has been asked many times, no solid answer has been excepted as the answer, so this group sent out a passive agressive letter. Perhaps not the correct idea, but blues has a higher potential for this unsavory activity to occur both intentionally and not intentionally. I can see why they did it. I have seen this type of thing sent out to forums and E-mail chains, just never distributed at a dance. The idea is not new just distributed differently.
I am not certain that a witch hunt is in order. :-)
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
I'm all about helping follows become more assertive in saying no and stopping dances and reporting creepy behavior to event organizers. I don't think handing out a flyer to everyone who passes through your door is a very smart way to do that and continue to build the community. You're treating all your new dancers like potential creeps instead of treating them like potential friends.
And I -really- don't like the elitist in-crowd subtext.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "lindy_rioteer" There are scenes, out there....lets say Tampa where I have seen kids as young as 13 at the dance, and seniors perhaps as old as 75 and everything in between. This can happen because swing dancing in this environment is considered good clean safe fun.
As consenting adults we have weighed risks but the young teenage "kids" in the establishment do not feel the need to be aware of the creeps, they are just having fun. Senior citizens find the place to be fun and Christian groups approve. All is going well until people become aware of an unsavory element. What do you do.
You don't have to remind me. In my scene we've had two prominent members be carted off to prison for child molestation. Beyond that we've had more than our share of creeps. There are ways to deal with these issues that don't involve treating all your clients like potential offenders.
Quote This question has been asked many times, no solid answer has been excepted as the answer, so this group sent out a passive agressive letter. Perhaps not the correct idea, but blues has a higher potential for this unsavory activity to occur both intentionally and not intentionally.
Paging Damon Stone, paging Damon Stone.... ;)
Quote I can see why they did it. I have seen this type of thing sent out to forums and E-mail chains, just never distributed at a dance. The idea is not new just distributed differently.
You know, I'm fine with a webpage with etiquette tips, I'm fine with forum discussions, these are internal community discussions that people can choose to participate in or not. I'm not fine with a venue shoving a flyer in my face telling me how to behave like they're my mother. And if I ever saw someone from that group of three at the bottom behaving in a manner described in that flyer I'd feel doubly patronized.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
I'm ok with it. Maybe not handing it out at the door, but having it at a table. If someone is being creepy, maybe an organizer (or a horrified dance partner) could hand them a flier and suggest that they read it.
Better safe than sorry- A LOT of people who are new (and occasionally, old) to blues dancing don't get it and behave very inappropriately. It is often unintentional, and it could help the unintentional creeps to not be creepy. I rarely go to blues dances any more because of the high creep factor, and I am happy for anything that organizers try to do to make it a better environment.
....and that flier should totally be handed out to everyone at Herrang Blues Night. ICK!
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
But isn't that like...something people ought to learn the hard way, out there, in real life? That's my point. I don't deny that some people just don't get it or whatever, but we're not children and dancing isn't daycare. I don't go out dancing to be taught important life lessons, I go out dancing to go out dancing.
The world isn't made of Nerf, there are crazies and creeps and people with different values, all of whom are behaving in a way they think is okay. Part of the skills people must learn in life is how to separate the good folks from the bad. I think it speaks to something in our society that not only are people not learning these skills out there in the "real world" but that they're okay with having some paternalistic entity lecture them on what those skills are during what is supposed to be a fun social occasion.
I mean we've been going for almost 15 years in swing revival time and we've dealt with creeps just fine. Has the clientele changed with the generation change? This is what I'm wondering.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Also, seriously. Where are the effing Blues dancers who normally jump in and defend their dear dance from being maligned. We've now had TWO people say Blues dancing is creepier than Lindy and not a peep. You guys are getting lazy ;)
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
You're right, something like this does not need to be said in a flyer form. If somebody is causing trouble, take that person aside and deal with it on an individual basis.
If newer dancers need to feel empowered to tell their partner when they are uncomfortable, or to feel like they can approach an organizer, briefly throw that tidbit in during the lesson. Perhaps do it in a funny way; don't make a big deal out of it.
I don't know how this fits in with overarcing societal trends. In my experience, it seems like the swing and blues communities have a lot of socially awkward people in them (yes I include myself in this group). Maybe some aren't comfortable in an environment that too closely mirrors the "real world" and have this unrealistic expectation of a perfectly sterile dance haven where we can all geek out together, while still being hep and true to the "street" roots of our dance.
I think that the blues community has in general gone beyond acknowledging the creepiness issue, to the point of over-acknowledging it and allowing it to have power over our dance community. It has become the "other face" of blues dancing, which isn't really accurate. The creepy guy who shows up at blues dances is no different than the creepy guy who shows up at swing dances. And the blues scene is not the same kind of meat-market that many clubs are, so really it is a very "safe" place to dance compared to most other places.
That blues has this overreaching reaction just furthers the outside perception that creepiness is synonymous with blues.
In other ways, I think this has to do with the fact that a lot of lindy hoppers don't really respect the blues dancers (this varies by scene... I found that in CO, the cool kids were more down with blues than here, for example), and blues dancers for whatever reason want blues to be validated by the lindy community that most of us are also a part of. I've come 180 on this and now think, who cares? Many ballroom dancers hold laughable impressions about swing dance, but we pay them no mind. If someone isn't interested in blues and doesn't respect it, that doesn't affect my ability to enjoy it any more than some international jive dancer thumbing his nose at lindy hop. Hwhatever.
As an ironic tangent, it isn't even random newbies that are the cause of blues' perception as a skilless/creepy dance. Newbies mostly emulate the people at the top of the scene who they look up to. In Denver the blues newbies were trying their best to do the slow drag they'd see at the end of the night at the Merc or at Blues Room.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Marcelo" 1) It's horrendously paternalistic. It treats the attendees like children who need to be nannied and supervised rather than the rational adults they ought to be treated as. Instead of just chalking up creeps as one of the perils of interacting with other people, we insulate and try to protect everyone from ever having a negative experience anywhere. It's like the parents who don't let their kids play in the yard.
Or it empowers a follow who might feel uncomfortable that what she's experiencing is actually NOT what it's supposed to be like so she opens her mouth to say something where before she wouldn't.
Quote 2) It won't work to stop creeps, because creeps don't realize that these flyers are talking to them. They think their behavior is just fine and dandy and that they're part of this loving community of dancers.
No, but if no one wants to dance with them they'll eventually leave.
Quote 3) It's dumb marketing. If I'm a newb and I go to this event and get this flyer I think that a) this place has a creep problem, and b) they don't trust me to behave like a normal human being.
I showed this to a friend who has never danced, has seen some blues clips, would like to try it out, and did have a similar reaction to (a) with some apprehension (oh - is this a huge problem?). I explained that there are many socially awkward people in the scene so for some it's useful knowing what to expect and what not to accept. In that light she didn't have a problem with it.
Quote
4) It's elitist. At the bottom they tell you to seek out these cool community leaders for advice on how not to be creepy. Who died and made these three people experts? Who made them the nannies of this scene?
Weird - I don't see this as elitist at all. Who puts someone on a hospitality committee or even a registration desk where you should be pleasant to everyone who comes in? Usually the event organizers who are looking to create a welcoming environment for other people. So for a newb who is attending trying to figure out some stuff, got a few 'creepy' comments, and is now frustrated there's a few point people (I'll assume they're good dances with a firm understanding of how to fix some 'creepy' nuances) they can talk to instead of either giving up or continuing what they're doing.
I'm also approaching this saying more people are creepy by accident (hunching over and not realizing it, not giving the follow space, etc...) than by being purposeful.
Quote It stratifies the community into the elites who are okay and proven and can do whatever and the newbies who may or may not be creeps.
I'll assume that the 'elite' aren't going to be super creepy out there, hence why they're chosen to be point people (otherwise fail on the part of the organizers).
Quote And who's the judge of what "too friendly" means? Is there a threshold that's accepted by everyone? Is it the three people at the bottom who decide? Are certain people who are well-liked and in the in crowd already allowed to get away with being "too friendly" while older less attractive less cool people are called creeps?
This is totally valid and would vary from person to person, ultimately those that may come on too strong to someone who doesn't feel comfortable with it. Again, better to give newbs a fallback to know what's 'OK' and what's not. That said another line about how this is a close dance with a lot of contact would probably be useful to know so they don't think it's a hands together feet five feet apart kind of dance.
Quote Like I said before I'm all about making dancing a safe environment and throwing creeps out.
And how if you're an organizer would you know if someone is a creep if no one says anything?
Quote Time was creeps used to be taken out back and given a sock in the jaw, and I was cool with that.
That used to happen at dances? Man I came into this thing at the wrong time - was that a paid position?
Quote I think more generally that the problem is that in this community we've forgotten that dancing, like going out to a bar or going on a date or going anywhere in public with people you don't know, is a public social activity. And public social activities involve a certain amount of discomfort and risk because people are different and act in ways you don't expect, up to and including creepiness. I thought dealing with creeps was a social skill everyone was supposed to learn out there in the real world. Has our society become so intolerant and insulated from the dangers of the world out there that we now require some nanny organization to regulate this problem for us? Is it just the dancing community or is this part of the broader trend of parents who overprotect their kids and municipal regulations that ban any potentially dangerous activity (like the small town in the Midwest that recently cancelled Halloween)?
Discuss.
Bring up any of the old blues threads to see the misconceptions of a blues scene and I think it has less to do with a society commentary and more about keeping a local blues scene safe and welcoming for newbs.
All this said - it's pretty stark and perhaps the wording could be better. Flip side it's well organized and paints a good picture of what's acceptable or not. Fiftynites passes out a flyer on being considerate of your fellow dances at Fram from time to time (too lazy to find the thread right now) but should people feel insulted because some 'elitist' is telling them how to act on the dance floor? No - I see it as a reminder that you shouldn't Charleston wildly in heels which some people could use from time to time.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Marcelo"
4) It's elitist. At the bottom they tell you to seek out these cool community leaders for advice on how not to be creepy. Who died and made these three people experts? Who made them the nannies of this scene? It stratifies the community into the elites who are okay and proven and can do whatever and the newbies who may or may not be creeps. And who's the judge of what "too friendly" means? Is there a threshold that's accepted by everyone? Is it the three people at the bottom who decide? Are certain people who are well-liked and in the in crowd already allowed to get away with being "too friendly" while older less attractive less cool people are called creeps?
I'm not actually sure on this, but are these three people the main organizers behind KBB? It seems that Campbell and Chris are heavily positioned as the main teachers of the Blues Association of Austin, the organization behind KBB. If that is the case, I think instructing people who have questions to go to the organizers and/or teachers is the best thing to do.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
A fair point, but knowing what I know about how organizers and participants interact and the cliques and social circles that form I'm still wary. I know I've definitely seen my fair share of well-liked people in the community behave in a manner that this flier would define as creepy, and it was encouraged because it was part of the in-crowd activity. When other people who had the designation of being creepy did it it was them being creepy.
I would hate to be one of those organizers anyway in that situation. That just opens you up to all sorts of people pointing fingers at your behavior and saying "Why can't I do what he does?"
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Signet" The creepy guy who shows up at blues dances is no different than the creepy guy who shows up at swing dances.
I disagree. The creepy guy who shows up at blues dances is MUCH more likely to attempt to grind his crotch into me. This is more of a problem in 'blues rooms' at lindy events than pure blues events, but still. Guys seem to think that if it is a blues dance that it is somehow more ok for them to grind their junk on their poor follows legs. And you get more beaver clamping followers at blues dances than you do at lindy dances.
I absolutely love blues dancing, but the proportion of creepy dancers is just too high for me to handle.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Marcelo" A fair point, but knowing what I know about how organizers and participants interact and the cliques and social circles that form I'm still wary. I know I've definitely seen my fair share of well-liked people in the community behave in a manner that this flier would define as creepy, and it was encouraged because it was part of the in-crowd activity. When other people who had the designation of being creepy did it it was them being creepy.
I would hate to be one of those organizers anyway in that situation. That just opens you up to all sorts of people pointing fingers at your behavior and saying "Why can't I do what he does?"
Yep. Creepiness is not an objective thing. It's not even consistent for a given person. What I find "creepy" coming from a woman twice my age who smells like cabbage I might find perfectly acceptable from a woman my own age who I wouldn't mind getting to know off the dancefloor. Or from a friend who I'm having a great dance with versus someone I don't know who I'm struggling to get a working connection with. Etc etc etc.
Suggesting that new dancers should model their behavior after experienced dancers who are already part of a clique is a pretty good way to have them creep somebody out.
Learning to read other people's body language and nonverbal cues is just a part of healthy social development. If someone can't do that at 9pm tonight, they're not going to be able to at 9:05 after reading a flyer. It's through the risk and unpleasantry of the real world that they'll learn this skill, if they even have the desire to learn it.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
And to answer your question, Air, I always believed that the best way to teach was to lead by example. As Signet said, newbies emulate the behavior of the cool kids. So if these people want to create a fun and safe environment, the best way is to be that environment, enlist your movers and shakers to be the environment, and then enforce against those who violate the unspoken code of conduct the old-fashioned way: shunning them, mocking them, and outright hostility towards them.
I think you guys are confusing my opposition to the flyer as opposition to doing something about creepy people. I'm all about dealing with creeps, in fact one of my main criticisms of the flyer is that it's TOTALLY passive aggressive; I would rather people confront creeps mid dance, mid floor, and throw them out all cartoonlike to much applause ("....and STAY OUT!"). This flyer doesn't solve the problem at all, it just magnifies it and patronizes your clientele.
There are other ways to empower follows - workshops, the beginning of the lesson idea is a great one, and I'm not sure I would mind a postively messaged flyer aimed at follows telling them to stand up for themselves and not to take crap from people. But this one isn't like that, this is fingerpointy and says "you need to know how to behave, and we know how to behave better than you do." A message aimed at empowering people would say "there are creeps out there, here's how to deal with them." It's a TOTALLY different message with TOTALLY different subtext.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Marcelo" And to answer your question, Air, I always believed that the best way to teach was to lead by example. As Signet said, newbies emulate the behavior of the cool kids. So if these people want to create a fun and safe environment, the best way is to be that environment, enlist your movers and shakers to be the environment, and then enforce against those who violate the unspoken code of conduct the old-fashioned way: shunning them, mocking them, and outright hostility towards them.
But the way blues dancing looks is very misleading. As it points out in the first paragraph what looks like something is happening many times isn't. Connection is close but a few inches to one side or the other could make the difference between a great dance and a creepy one. And of course for some dances they're so far over the line that the last resort is to just walk away.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
My experience is that creeps are either ignorant, clueless or deliberately creepy. Only ignorance can be addressed with a flyer like that, but even then I don't think it'd be effective.
I think it's better to provide follows with tools on how to handle creeps... Be assertive and start refusing dances with known creeps.
I agree with Marcelo, a flyer like that treats everybody like a potential creep. Creeps are a minority and you can better address the problem on an individual basis. Word of mouth kind of stuff. Pretty soon follows wise up to this or that guy and they will either change the behaviour or they won't be able to dance anymore.
They're like rats; remove the food and they go away.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Marcelo" There are other ways to empower follows - workshops, the beginning of the lesson idea is a great one, and I'm not sure I would mind a postively messaged flyer aimed at follows telling them to stand up for themselves and not to take crap from people. But this one isn't like that, this is fingerpointy and says "you need to know how to behave, and we know how to behave better than you do." A message aimed at empowering people would say "there are creeps out there, here's how to deal with them." It's a TOTALLY different message with TOTALLY different subtext.
This is the assumption that people are going to workshops and lessons. This dance takes place in a coffee shop. That type of venue seems more likely to be inviting to the non-dancing public. There might be other patrons who join in the dancing, but are not taking lessons. The last 2 items in the "Do" column give people "permission" to end a dance or express the fact that they are uncomfortable.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
I think the issue would have been better addressed simply by posting the following in a few well traveled locations:
Quote PLEASE BE ADVISED
We have had a few complaints about unwanted creepy behavior on the part of some attendees. If you feel uncomfortable with the actions of others, please stop dancing with them, verbalize your concern(s) to the other party and/or let one of the KBB helpers know about your concern(s).
Thank you,
KBB Staff
The fact that you even have this issue is a whole other can of worms.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Off-topic, I just want to point out that I say Blues is humpy on any other thread I get ten Blues defenders jumping down my throat.
On here we've had now like half a dozen people saying that Blues has an inherent closeness and sexualized nature that invites creepiness. The reaction from the blues community?
Quote crickets
Has something changed? Do Blues dancers, like Signet suggested, simply not care anymore what the perception of their dance is? Have we all accepted the idea that Blues dancing is all grindy and humpy and sexual and thus breeds creepiness?
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "GuruReuben" I think the issue would have been better addressed simply by posting the following in a few well traveled locations:
Quote PLEASE BE ADVISED
We have had a few complaints about unwanted creepy behavior on the part of some attendees. If you feel uncomfortable with the actions of others, please stop dancing with them, verbalize your concern(s) to the other party and/or let one of the KBB helpers know about your concern(s).
Thank you,
KBB Staff
The fact that you even have this issue is a whole other can of worms.
I'd be fine with this. I mean, I'd kind of laugh at it, but I wouldn't be all righteously indignant about it.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
I really think dances and dance societies need to bring back etiquette classes. You position it as a leaders workshop/followers workshop - make it free - and talk/demo non-creepy things.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Maybe throw in some actual dancing as a freebie to entice people to come? I dunno.
I wonder why it's become such a problem all of a sudden. I certainly don't remember etiquette classes in 1999 and 2000. I remember discussions about etiquette online or in regular instruction, but it's like people think there's a creep epidemic out there.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "Marcelo" Maybe throw in some actual dancing as a freebie to entice people to come? I dunno.
I wonder why it's become such a problem all of a sudden. I certainly don't remember etiquette classes in 1999 and 2000. I remember discussions about etiquette online or in regular instruction, but it's like people think there's a creep epidemic out there.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "vsb" That requires people to attend.
In my experience, if you billed it as an advanced fundamentals for leaders, the chief offenders would show up. The ones that don't are usually long-standing problems in your scene anyway.
Look, swing dancing generally attracts guys who aren't getting laid on the regular somewhere else. Some of those guys are way creepy. It happens.
As for Marcelo's observation that it wasn't this bad a few years ago, I disagree. What was different a few years ago was that more people were dancing, more couples were performing and competing (even on the social floor) - the scenes were bigger and more inclusive. Oh, and you might be able to hang with the drinkers. If you got weirded out when 300 people were there no big deal. When its 70 people - big deal.
Originally posted Tuesday, October 13, 2009 (2 years ago)
Quoted from "GuruReuben" Personally, if I was in a creep infested scene, I'd make signs that said "Creepy Dude" or "Crazy Chick" and go around sticking them on people's backs.
A Reuben sighting means we all have to drink.
Kalman
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Passing out a flyer on how not to be creepy
This is the kind of thing that really grinds my gears. I'm ALL about taking creepy people to task, up to and including throwing them out and asking them not to come back, but distributing this flyer is just dumb on SO many levels.
1) It's horrendously paternalistic. It treats the attendees like children who need to be nannied and supervised rather than the rational adults they ought to be treated as. Instead of just chalking up creeps as one of the perils of interacting with other people, we insulate and try to protect everyone from ever having a negative experience anywhere. It's like the parents who don't let their kids play in the yard.
2) It won't work to stop creeps, because creeps don't realize that these flyers are talking to them. They think their behavior is just fine and dandy and that they're part of this loving community of dancers.
3) It's dumb marketing. If I'm a newb and I go to this event and get this flyer I think that a) this place has a creep problem, and b) they don't trust me to behave like a normal human being.
4) It's elitist. At the bottom they tell you to seek out these cool community leaders for advice on how not to be creepy. Who died and made these three people experts? Who made them the nannies of this scene? It stratifies the community into the elites who are okay and proven and can do whatever and the newbies who may or may not be creeps. And who's the judge of what "too friendly" means? Is there a threshold that's accepted by everyone? Is it the three people at the bottom who decide? Are certain people who are well-liked and in the in crowd already allowed to get away with being "too friendly" while older less attractive less cool people are called creeps?
Like I said before I'm all about making dancing a safe environment and throwing creeps out. Time was creeps used to be taken out back and given a sock in the jaw, and I was cool with that. But this is just ridiculously passive-aggressive and paternalistic, not to mention it puts a tremendous burden on the folks listed at the bottom to never do anything that might be considered creepy (although my sense is that they have enough stature in the community that they could do all these things and not be called creepy, this is targeted solely at newbies and less cool folks who aren't in the same cliques).
I think more generally that the problem is that in this community we've forgotten that dancing, like going out to a bar or going on a date or going anywhere in public with people you don't know, is a public social activity. And public social activities involve a certain amount of discomfort and risk because people are different and act in ways you don't expect, up to and including creepiness. I thought dealing with creeps was a social skill everyone was supposed to learn out there in the real world. Has our society become so intolerant and insulated from the dangers of the world out there that we now require some nanny organization to regulate this problem for us? Is it just the dancing community or is this part of the broader trend of parents who overprotect their kids and municipal regulations that ban any potentially dangerous activity (like the small town in the Midwest that recently cancelled Halloween)?
Discuss.
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Actually, I'm okay with the flyer. Obviously there have been some problems in the past, and the organizers of the event are trying to fix them. I can think of some situations where a flyer like this would have helped, for instance, the time I told a lead, "Tilt your pelvis back, or I will stop dancing with you." "But they-" "NO. It's an illusion. They are not. Tilt your pelvis back." He did, then he brought it forward again. "I told you, if you don't tilt your pelvis back, I will stop dancing with you. We're done."
I've also had to gently tell a lead, "Um, please stop leading me from my lower back - it hurts when you do that." He asked where he should put his hand, I told him the shoulder blade, and he then reached over to lead me from my RIGHT shoulder blade, when he realized the left wasn't close enough for him. (i.e. there was enough room for the baby Jesus)
I understand that it seems kind of silly, but there are a LOT of women socially conditioned to just put up with situations that make them uncomfortable, especially when it's just for a little while. Given the choice between making a scene, and feeling squicked out for five minutes, many will choose to be passive and deal. It looks like they were trying to give the follows who were complaining permission to make a scene, instead of gritting their teeth.
I think the "too friendly" should have been left off or put in quotation marks.
It would be much funnier if it were photo-illustrated
Yeah, I'm okay with it.
Though I see it as an odd precaution and think it to be very assuming, and though I don't endorse the action at all. I will submit this thought.
There are scenes, out there....lets say Tampa where I have seen kids as young as 13 at the dance, and seniors perhaps as old as 75 and everything in between. This can happen because swing dancing in this environment is considered good clean safe fun.
As consenting adults we have weighed risks but the young teenage "kids" in the establishment do not feel the need to be aware of the creeps, they are just having fun. Senior citizens find the place to be fun and Christian groups approve. All is going well until people become aware of an unsavory element. What do you do. This question has been asked many times, no solid answer has been excepted as the answer, so this group sent out a passive agressive letter. Perhaps not the correct idea, but blues has a higher potential for this unsavory activity to occur both intentionally and not intentionally. I can see why they did it. I have seen this type of thing sent out to forums and E-mail chains, just never distributed at a dance. The idea is not new just distributed differently.
I am not certain that a witch hunt is in order. :-)
I'm all about helping follows become more assertive in saying no and stopping dances and reporting creepy behavior to event organizers. I don't think handing out a flyer to everyone who passes through your door is a very smart way to do that and continue to build the community. You're treating all your new dancers like potential creeps instead of treating them like potential friends.
And I -really- don't like the elitist in-crowd subtext.
You don't have to remind me. In my scene we've had two prominent members be carted off to prison for child molestation. Beyond that we've had more than our share of creeps. There are ways to deal with these issues that don't involve treating all your clients like potential offenders.
Paging Damon Stone, paging Damon Stone.... ;)
You know, I'm fine with a webpage with etiquette tips, I'm fine with forum discussions, these are internal community discussions that people can choose to participate in or not. I'm not fine with a venue shoving a flyer in my face telling me how to behave like they're my mother. And if I ever saw someone from that group of three at the bottom behaving in a manner described in that flyer I'd feel doubly patronized.
I'm ok with it. Maybe not handing it out at the door, but having it at a table. If someone is being creepy, maybe an organizer (or a horrified dance partner) could hand them a flier and suggest that they read it.
Better safe than sorry- A LOT of people who are new (and occasionally, old) to blues dancing don't get it and behave very inappropriately. It is often unintentional, and it could help the unintentional creeps to not be creepy. I rarely go to blues dances any more because of the high creep factor, and I am happy for anything that organizers try to do to make it a better environment.
....and that flier should totally be handed out to everyone at Herrang Blues Night. ICK!
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
But isn't that like...something people ought to learn the hard way, out there, in real life? That's my point. I don't deny that some people just don't get it or whatever, but we're not children and dancing isn't daycare. I don't go out dancing to be taught important life lessons, I go out dancing to go out dancing.
The world isn't made of Nerf, there are crazies and creeps and people with different values, all of whom are behaving in a way they think is okay. Part of the skills people must learn in life is how to separate the good folks from the bad. I think it speaks to something in our society that not only are people not learning these skills out there in the "real world" but that they're okay with having some paternalistic entity lecture them on what those skills are during what is supposed to be a fun social occasion.
I mean we've been going for almost 15 years in swing revival time and we've dealt with creeps just fine. Has the clientele changed with the generation change? This is what I'm wondering.
Also, seriously. Where are the effing Blues dancers who normally jump in and defend their dear dance from being maligned. We've now had TWO people say Blues dancing is creepier than Lindy and not a peep. You guys are getting lazy ;)
You're right, something like this does not need to be said in a flyer form. If somebody is causing trouble, take that person aside and deal with it on an individual basis.
If newer dancers need to feel empowered to tell their partner when they are uncomfortable, or to feel like they can approach an organizer, briefly throw that tidbit in during the lesson. Perhaps do it in a funny way; don't make a big deal out of it.
I don't know how this fits in with overarcing societal trends. In my experience, it seems like the swing and blues communities have a lot of socially awkward people in them (yes I include myself in this group). Maybe some aren't comfortable in an environment that too closely mirrors the "real world" and have this unrealistic expectation of a perfectly sterile dance haven where we can all geek out together, while still being hep and true to the "street" roots of our dance.
I think that the blues community has in general gone beyond acknowledging the creepiness issue, to the point of over-acknowledging it and allowing it to have power over our dance community. It has become the "other face" of blues dancing, which isn't really accurate. The creepy guy who shows up at blues dances is no different than the creepy guy who shows up at swing dances. And the blues scene is not the same kind of meat-market that many clubs are, so really it is a very "safe" place to dance compared to most other places.
That blues has this overreaching reaction just furthers the outside perception that creepiness is synonymous with blues.
In other ways, I think this has to do with the fact that a lot of lindy hoppers don't really respect the blues dancers (this varies by scene... I found that in CO, the cool kids were more down with blues than here, for example), and blues dancers for whatever reason want blues to be validated by the lindy community that most of us are also a part of. I've come 180 on this and now think, who cares? Many ballroom dancers hold laughable impressions about swing dance, but we pay them no mind. If someone isn't interested in blues and doesn't respect it, that doesn't affect my ability to enjoy it any more than some international jive dancer thumbing his nose at lindy hop. Hwhatever.
As an ironic tangent, it isn't even random newbies that are the cause of blues' perception as a skilless/creepy dance. Newbies mostly emulate the people at the top of the scene who they look up to. In Denver the blues newbies were trying their best to do the slow drag they'd see at the end of the night at the Merc or at Blues Room.
- James
Or it empowers a follow who might feel uncomfortable that what she's experiencing is actually NOT what it's supposed to be like so she opens her mouth to say something where before she wouldn't.
No, but if no one wants to dance with them they'll eventually leave.
I showed this to a friend who has never danced, has seen some blues clips, would like to try it out, and did have a similar reaction to (a) with some apprehension (oh - is this a huge problem?). I explained that there are many socially awkward people in the scene so for some it's useful knowing what to expect and what not to accept. In that light she didn't have a problem with it.
Weird - I don't see this as elitist at all. Who puts someone on a hospitality committee or even a registration desk where you should be pleasant to everyone who comes in? Usually the event organizers who are looking to create a welcoming environment for other people. So for a newb who is attending trying to figure out some stuff, got a few 'creepy' comments, and is now frustrated there's a few point people (I'll assume they're good dances with a firm understanding of how to fix some 'creepy' nuances) they can talk to instead of either giving up or continuing what they're doing.
I'm also approaching this saying more people are creepy by accident (hunching over and not realizing it, not giving the follow space, etc...) than by being purposeful.
I'll assume that the 'elite' aren't going to be super creepy out there, hence why they're chosen to be point people (otherwise fail on the part of the organizers).
This is totally valid and would vary from person to person, ultimately those that may come on too strong to someone who doesn't feel comfortable with it. Again, better to give newbs a fallback to know what's 'OK' and what's not. That said another line about how this is a close dance with a lot of contact would probably be useful to know so they don't think it's a hands together feet five feet apart kind of dance.
And how if you're an organizer would you know if someone is a creep if no one says anything?
That used to happen at dances? Man I came into this thing at the wrong time - was that a paid position?
Bring up any of the old blues threads to see the misconceptions of a blues scene and I think it has less to do with a society commentary and more about keeping a local blues scene safe and welcoming for newbs.
All this said - it's pretty stark and perhaps the wording could be better. Flip side it's well organized and paints a good picture of what's acceptable or not. Fiftynites passes out a flyer on being considerate of your fellow dances at Fram from time to time (too lazy to find the thread right now) but should people feel insulted because some 'elitist' is telling them how to act on the dance floor? No - I see it as a reminder that you shouldn't Charleston wildly in heels which some people could use from time to time.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
I'm not actually sure on this, but are these three people the main organizers behind KBB? It seems that Campbell and Chris are heavily positioned as the main teachers of the Blues Association of Austin, the organization behind KBB. If that is the case, I think instructing people who have questions to go to the organizers and/or teachers is the best thing to do.
A fair point, but knowing what I know about how organizers and participants interact and the cliques and social circles that form I'm still wary. I know I've definitely seen my fair share of well-liked people in the community behave in a manner that this flier would define as creepy, and it was encouraged because it was part of the in-crowd activity. When other people who had the designation of being creepy did it it was them being creepy.
I would hate to be one of those organizers anyway in that situation. That just opens you up to all sorts of people pointing fingers at your behavior and saying "Why can't I do what he does?"
I disagree. The creepy guy who shows up at blues dances is MUCH more likely to attempt to grind his crotch into me. This is more of a problem in 'blues rooms' at lindy events than pure blues events, but still. Guys seem to think that if it is a blues dance that it is somehow more ok for them to grind their junk on their poor follows legs. And you get more beaver clamping followers at blues dances than you do at lindy dances.
I absolutely love blues dancing, but the proportion of creepy dancers is just too high for me to handle.
follow my adventures at www.AppalachianToAlpine.blogspot.com!
Squicked?
Follows who don't want to get wet shouldn't dance with me.
Yep. Creepiness is not an objective thing. It's not even consistent for a given person. What I find "creepy" coming from a woman twice my age who smells like cabbage I might find perfectly acceptable from a woman my own age who I wouldn't mind getting to know off the dancefloor. Or from a friend who I'm having a great dance with versus someone I don't know who I'm struggling to get a working connection with. Etc etc etc.
Suggesting that new dancers should model their behavior after experienced dancers who are already part of a clique is a pretty good way to have them creep somebody out.
Learning to read other people's body language and nonverbal cues is just a part of healthy social development. If someone can't do that at 9pm tonight, they're not going to be able to at 9:05 after reading a flyer. It's through the risk and unpleasantry of the real world that they'll learn this skill, if they even have the desire to learn it.
- James
And to answer your question, Air, I always believed that the best way to teach was to lead by example. As Signet said, newbies emulate the behavior of the cool kids. So if these people want to create a fun and safe environment, the best way is to be that environment, enlist your movers and shakers to be the environment, and then enforce against those who violate the unspoken code of conduct the old-fashioned way: shunning them, mocking them, and outright hostility towards them.
I think you guys are confusing my opposition to the flyer as opposition to doing something about creepy people. I'm all about dealing with creeps, in fact one of my main criticisms of the flyer is that it's TOTALLY passive aggressive; I would rather people confront creeps mid dance, mid floor, and throw them out all cartoonlike to much applause ("....and STAY OUT!"). This flyer doesn't solve the problem at all, it just magnifies it and patronizes your clientele.
There are other ways to empower follows - workshops, the beginning of the lesson idea is a great one, and I'm not sure I would mind a postively messaged flyer aimed at follows telling them to stand up for themselves and not to take crap from people. But this one isn't like that, this is fingerpointy and says "you need to know how to behave, and we know how to behave better than you do." A message aimed at empowering people would say "there are creeps out there, here's how to deal with them." It's a TOTALLY different message with TOTALLY different subtext.
But the way blues dancing looks is very misleading. As it points out in the first paragraph what looks like something is happening many times isn't. Connection is close but a few inches to one side or the other could make the difference between a great dance and a creepy one. And of course for some dances they're so far over the line that the last resort is to just walk away.
Do you know how awkward it is to have a political argument with a naked man?
My experience is that creeps are either ignorant, clueless or deliberately creepy. Only ignorance can be addressed with a flyer like that, but even then I don't think it'd be effective.
I think it's better to provide follows with tools on how to handle creeps... Be assertive and start refusing dances with known creeps.
I agree with Marcelo, a flyer like that treats everybody like a potential creep. Creeps are a minority and you can better address the problem on an individual basis. Word of mouth kind of stuff. Pretty soon follows wise up to this or that guy and they will either change the behaviour or they won't be able to dance anymore.
They're like rats; remove the food and they go away.
squeezed x icky eeewwwww = squicked
This is the assumption that people are going to workshops and lessons. This dance takes place in a coffee shop. That type of venue seems more likely to be inviting to the non-dancing public. There might be other patrons who join in the dancing, but are not taking lessons. The last 2 items in the "Do" column give people "permission" to end a dance or express the fact that they are uncomfortable.
I think the issue would have been better addressed simply by posting the following in a few well traveled locations:
The fact that you even have this issue is a whole other can of worms.
Reuben Brown - www.JiveJunction.com - Southern California
Off-topic, I just want to point out that I say Blues is humpy on any other thread I get ten Blues defenders jumping down my throat.
On here we've had now like half a dozen people saying that Blues has an inherent closeness and sexualized nature that invites creepiness. The reaction from the blues community?
Has something changed? Do Blues dancers, like Signet suggested, simply not care anymore what the perception of their dance is? Have we all accepted the idea that Blues dancing is all grindy and humpy and sexual and thus breeds creepiness?
I'd be fine with this. I mean, I'd kind of laugh at it, but I wouldn't be all righteously indignant about it.
I really think dances and dance societies need to bring back etiquette classes. You position it as a leaders workshop/followers workshop - make it free - and talk/demo non-creepy things.
Kalman
That requires people to attend.
Maybe throw in some actual dancing as a freebie to entice people to come? I dunno.
I wonder why it's become such a problem all of a sudden. I certainly don't remember etiquette classes in 1999 and 2000. I remember discussions about etiquette online or in regular instruction, but it's like people think there's a creep epidemic out there.
I do.
kalman
Personally, if I was in a creep infested scene, I'd make signs that said "Creepy Dude" or "Crazy Chick" and go around sticking them on people's backs.
Reuben Brown - www.JiveJunction.com - Southern California
In my experience, if you billed it as an advanced fundamentals for leaders, the chief offenders would show up. The ones that don't are usually long-standing problems in your scene anyway.
Look, swing dancing generally attracts guys who aren't getting laid on the regular somewhere else. Some of those guys are way creepy. It happens.
As for Marcelo's observation that it wasn't this bad a few years ago, I disagree. What was different a few years ago was that more people were dancing, more couples were performing and competing (even on the social floor) - the scenes were bigger and more inclusive. Oh, and you might be able to hang with the drinkers. If you got weirded out when 300 people were there no big deal. When its 70 people - big deal.
Kalman
A Reuben sighting means we all have to drink.
Kalman
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